Photo: Stacy Lanyon
Occupy was something that I had been waiting for a long
time. I had gotten involved with activism when I was in college, and I was just
so frustrated that it didn’t seem to be reaching out to beyond the regular circle of activists. I grew frustrated with it
because of the activist culture and how people were not even trying to
communicate to other people about the injustices that were ingrained in our
society and just how bad things have gotten. I just threw my hands up and found
myself constantly yelling at my friends through Facebook, being like, "Look
guys, this is really bad. You don’t even understand how bad it is. Your
conceptions are completely off.” Then, I was hearing mumblings about Occupy
happening and being like, “Whatever. I’ve been part of things on the left. I
know we always lose. I’m not going to be part of this activist subculture. I
don’t want to be a part of another inward facing activist thing.” Then, I saw
it when it actually was happening, and I was drawn into the livestream. I
realized that this was the first time I had seen people that weren’t
me talking about these issues in such a way. It was really weird to see other people that I didn't know feeling the same
way that I did.
I feel like I tried so hard when I was in college to reach young people, people my own age, and engage them on these issues, and they were just so tone deaf. They were not interested. When it came to issues half way across the world, they were like, "Of course, sign me up." As far as economic inequality right here in this country, they weren’t interested. I was drawn to seeing people who were my own age engaged in these topics, and I was baffled by it. The moment I saw that, I thought, “I need to be there.” I fought off this urge to be there for a couple of weeks, but I was glued to the livestream. I would wake up. I would watch it when I was doing my temp job or contracting work. I watched it the entire time. I went to bed with it. I woke up with it. Then, I finally went down on October 1st, and I still haven’t left. I went down with a friend. She knew a couple people who were involved in the earlier stages. She was my way of getting down there. I really wanted to go, but I didn’t have anyone to go with, and I didn’t want to go if I didn’t have anyone to go with.
We went on this march that was a typical march. I had been on thousands of marches. That wasn’t anything new for me, but it was just fun being in that space again and having our vocal chords tire out from yelling and trying to motivate the crowd. That march turned into the Brooklyn Bridge incident. I was like, “Whoa, what’s happening? Are they all getting arrested?” She and I were probably the first people who got redirected onto the pedestrian route right after those seven hundred people literally right in front of us took the bridge. We were just going to follow them. We didn’t even know we were going on the bridge. We were like, “The crowd is going this way. Let’s just go.” Then, we got redirected onto the pedestrian level, while the arrests were happening. We were like, “They’re arresting everyone? That’s insane. That’s crazy.” That was my first day. I’ll never forget it. I ended up on the other side of the bridge, and everyone had been arrested, and I was confused about that. There was this menacing police presence that was just circling us. If I was encircled by police now, I don’t think I would be antsy the way I was then.
I went back every single day after that. I went back the next day for the general assembly. The following day, I went back and helped out in the kitchen, and by the end of that week, I was plugged into facilitation because I was so interested in conversation. Part of why I went down there was because I felt that if all of these people were coming from all these different walks of life and talking to each other about what should happen, how could that be wrong? They were talking through all of their experiences. They were coming together. They were creating something and honing in on what is right and what is wrong and what we should be doing. How could that space ever be wrong? That’s the space that generates solutions, and I wanted to be a part of that. I was facilitating. I was training. I did the structure work for a while. I was down at the park all of the time. I would wake up early in the morning and go there, and I slept over there a couple of times. It was just so alive, so vibrant. It was this epicenter of culture and politics and art all together, and you would go there and meet the most fascinating, interesting people, people who were really about revolution, who were just like, “Let’s change the system, so that it works for all of us.” Spaces like that you don’t find everywhere. It was really hard to leave.
It was an ambitious project. At some point all of the problems of the world are going to find their way into your space, and sticking with facilitation, that’s what I noticed. All of these divisions that exist out here, and all of the things that make it hard to communicate across division and prejudice, and all of the ugly things that make it hard for us to listen to each other, found their way into our little world. When that started to happen, it was such a learning experience, and it transformed a lot about it. The first few weeks I was there, it was a magical place where everyone was nice, and people would come, and culture was happening. It was the center of the universe for a second. Then, all of these problems came in, and it was really hard to negotiate and navigate that. It was real. We had a prefigurative society, and then the world came. That’s what we were ultimately trying to do—solve the world’s problems. It was a huge undertaking. It only made sense for the problems of the world to find their way into our park. That’s why I hung with it. I was like, “I’m up to the challenge. This is actually real. This is actually what we were fighting. Let’s actually fight it and find solutions for fighting it.” That’s the perspective I gained after a little bit of time because it was really hard to see this beautiful world crumble and people start to take advantage of each other and talk badly to each other, to see all of the trauma and complication that we brought with us come into that space. That was hard to see but also important to see. If you were only with it when it was sparkly and perfect, you didn’t understand it.
It’s so important to move into action no matter where you are coming from. I came from academia. I graduated college a year before Occupy happened, and we talk a lot in academia about revolution and about power, but abstractly. With Occupy, we engaged with it in reality, and were trying to figure out how to build it and how to bring others to it, how to create empowering spaces where people can take action and stand for what they believe in. That is such a different question than talking about power and revolution abstractly. It was a huge learning experience for me to actually be engaged with this moment where you really were building revolution. Revolution has to be built. It’s a process. It doesn’t just happen overnight.
So many people got radicalized through Occupy. A lot of people came to it from a general frustration at not knowing how to channel what they were feeling into anything that was doing anything. I think through Occupy, through just getting active politically, people found out what that means. Even people in the institutional left don’t really understand what it means to create those spaces that actually reach the unaffiliated. The institutionalized left does a really good job at organizing the organized, people who are already taking action in some way, but not the person on the street. I think you have to create spaces where people can articulate their political views and work with people on making them a reality. There’s something about people just coming together and talking about the world that they live in, talking about how it should be and what could be improved upon. That creates a different orientation. It creates an agency. People try and recruit others through, “Come you’re really angry about the world in general. Work on this specific thing in order to change it.” There’s something about letting people choose for themselves what that one thing is and what the way they want to contribute is. That is what truly activates people, not as a means to an end, as an actually empowering moment. I think Occupy created that.
When the occupation was happening, I was sitting down with these big, important, lefty people who were great and really smart, but they didn’t understand that about Occupy. They didn’t understand what was so special and what it was creating and why it was creating it. They just saw it from afar. Even from just outside of the park, it just looked like a mess, but if you were inside, then you begin to listen and understand and see why it was working, why it was coming together in the way that it was. I still have friends who will critique from the outside. The outside perspective is important. I can critique it from the inside. There are lots of things to critique and be critical of, but you don’t really know what you’re talking about if you aren’t coming from a place of experience, if you didn't see what actually was wrong and what actually was working, if you didn't see the spaces that were being created. It was a new kind of orientation, a new kind of space people were being invited to.
There are a lot of things wrong with the world, and they're on many different levels. There are the material things that are wrong. People just don’t have access. There’s an inequality of access. People have no stability. People don’t have the bare minimum things that they need. We really are a developed enough world that we can at least have a bare minimum for people to have worldwide. Governments start wars and conflicts that are totally unrepresentative of the people who live there and are unnecessary and are violent and hurt a lot of people, and they are not in conversation with what people actually want. Most people, the large majority of the world just want to chill and be peaceful and pursue relationships and be with people. For some reason, the powers that be are bent on destruction and hurting other people, and that’s just a fundamental wrong.
Look at the way we measure what’s important. Think about money. Think about profit and what profits means. The idea of profit isn't what's bad. It's good that people are creating in the world. If we really want to give money for things that are good for people, then why are there so many broke homeless shelters. Why aren’t social workers super wealthy? We’re obviously misdefining this term. Wall Street funds economic destruction and genocide and war, and they are the most profitable. That’s obviously wrong. There’s obviously a misalignment that’s happened. This is not how it should be. The way we are thinking about things is wrong. We mostly all agree that it is wrong and that we shouldn’t be doing it this way. We know that it’s not working for most people. We have to recognize that when we don’t feed into these systems that we challenge the power by just refusing to contribute to it. We can make something that works better, and these systems of power will just fall apart on their own. They will just fall away because people stop complying. The structures that hold them up require that everyone participate in some way. We can say, “Actually, no, I’m good. I’m not going to help that at all.” If enough people do that, it crumbles. It can’t force people to work for it.
In Occupy, we had a lot of contact with the military and police. Those are structures, which go to prop up the system as it is. There’s always hope because those are people, so you can reach them on some level. Each person has free will, even if you’ve been convinced to do something else. Even if you’ve gone through a rigorous training that makes you devalue your fellow person, there is still hope. I fundamentally believe that. I’m a sociology major, so I very firmly believe that people are a result of their environment. It’s all what we’re exposed to. People are exposed to some really violent stuff, and people are really traumatized. This world has a lot of trauma, and it creates a lot of trauma and hard experiences for most people. Of course there’s a lot of pain and violence in the world because the system is painful and violent. Then, people pass it along to new people. Hurt people hurt other people. It’s just a cycle, but because it is people, you can always intervene in it, even if it takes generations. There’s always hope for people.
I feel like I tried so hard when I was in college to reach young people, people my own age, and engage them on these issues, and they were just so tone deaf. They were not interested. When it came to issues half way across the world, they were like, "Of course, sign me up." As far as economic inequality right here in this country, they weren’t interested. I was drawn to seeing people who were my own age engaged in these topics, and I was baffled by it. The moment I saw that, I thought, “I need to be there.” I fought off this urge to be there for a couple of weeks, but I was glued to the livestream. I would wake up. I would watch it when I was doing my temp job or contracting work. I watched it the entire time. I went to bed with it. I woke up with it. Then, I finally went down on October 1st, and I still haven’t left. I went down with a friend. She knew a couple people who were involved in the earlier stages. She was my way of getting down there. I really wanted to go, but I didn’t have anyone to go with, and I didn’t want to go if I didn’t have anyone to go with.
We went on this march that was a typical march. I had been on thousands of marches. That wasn’t anything new for me, but it was just fun being in that space again and having our vocal chords tire out from yelling and trying to motivate the crowd. That march turned into the Brooklyn Bridge incident. I was like, “Whoa, what’s happening? Are they all getting arrested?” She and I were probably the first people who got redirected onto the pedestrian route right after those seven hundred people literally right in front of us took the bridge. We were just going to follow them. We didn’t even know we were going on the bridge. We were like, “The crowd is going this way. Let’s just go.” Then, we got redirected onto the pedestrian level, while the arrests were happening. We were like, “They’re arresting everyone? That’s insane. That’s crazy.” That was my first day. I’ll never forget it. I ended up on the other side of the bridge, and everyone had been arrested, and I was confused about that. There was this menacing police presence that was just circling us. If I was encircled by police now, I don’t think I would be antsy the way I was then.
I went back every single day after that. I went back the next day for the general assembly. The following day, I went back and helped out in the kitchen, and by the end of that week, I was plugged into facilitation because I was so interested in conversation. Part of why I went down there was because I felt that if all of these people were coming from all these different walks of life and talking to each other about what should happen, how could that be wrong? They were talking through all of their experiences. They were coming together. They were creating something and honing in on what is right and what is wrong and what we should be doing. How could that space ever be wrong? That’s the space that generates solutions, and I wanted to be a part of that. I was facilitating. I was training. I did the structure work for a while. I was down at the park all of the time. I would wake up early in the morning and go there, and I slept over there a couple of times. It was just so alive, so vibrant. It was this epicenter of culture and politics and art all together, and you would go there and meet the most fascinating, interesting people, people who were really about revolution, who were just like, “Let’s change the system, so that it works for all of us.” Spaces like that you don’t find everywhere. It was really hard to leave.
It was an ambitious project. At some point all of the problems of the world are going to find their way into your space, and sticking with facilitation, that’s what I noticed. All of these divisions that exist out here, and all of the things that make it hard to communicate across division and prejudice, and all of the ugly things that make it hard for us to listen to each other, found their way into our little world. When that started to happen, it was such a learning experience, and it transformed a lot about it. The first few weeks I was there, it was a magical place where everyone was nice, and people would come, and culture was happening. It was the center of the universe for a second. Then, all of these problems came in, and it was really hard to negotiate and navigate that. It was real. We had a prefigurative society, and then the world came. That’s what we were ultimately trying to do—solve the world’s problems. It was a huge undertaking. It only made sense for the problems of the world to find their way into our park. That’s why I hung with it. I was like, “I’m up to the challenge. This is actually real. This is actually what we were fighting. Let’s actually fight it and find solutions for fighting it.” That’s the perspective I gained after a little bit of time because it was really hard to see this beautiful world crumble and people start to take advantage of each other and talk badly to each other, to see all of the trauma and complication that we brought with us come into that space. That was hard to see but also important to see. If you were only with it when it was sparkly and perfect, you didn’t understand it.
It’s so important to move into action no matter where you are coming from. I came from academia. I graduated college a year before Occupy happened, and we talk a lot in academia about revolution and about power, but abstractly. With Occupy, we engaged with it in reality, and were trying to figure out how to build it and how to bring others to it, how to create empowering spaces where people can take action and stand for what they believe in. That is such a different question than talking about power and revolution abstractly. It was a huge learning experience for me to actually be engaged with this moment where you really were building revolution. Revolution has to be built. It’s a process. It doesn’t just happen overnight.
So many people got radicalized through Occupy. A lot of people came to it from a general frustration at not knowing how to channel what they were feeling into anything that was doing anything. I think through Occupy, through just getting active politically, people found out what that means. Even people in the institutional left don’t really understand what it means to create those spaces that actually reach the unaffiliated. The institutionalized left does a really good job at organizing the organized, people who are already taking action in some way, but not the person on the street. I think you have to create spaces where people can articulate their political views and work with people on making them a reality. There’s something about people just coming together and talking about the world that they live in, talking about how it should be and what could be improved upon. That creates a different orientation. It creates an agency. People try and recruit others through, “Come you’re really angry about the world in general. Work on this specific thing in order to change it.” There’s something about letting people choose for themselves what that one thing is and what the way they want to contribute is. That is what truly activates people, not as a means to an end, as an actually empowering moment. I think Occupy created that.
When the occupation was happening, I was sitting down with these big, important, lefty people who were great and really smart, but they didn’t understand that about Occupy. They didn’t understand what was so special and what it was creating and why it was creating it. They just saw it from afar. Even from just outside of the park, it just looked like a mess, but if you were inside, then you begin to listen and understand and see why it was working, why it was coming together in the way that it was. I still have friends who will critique from the outside. The outside perspective is important. I can critique it from the inside. There are lots of things to critique and be critical of, but you don’t really know what you’re talking about if you aren’t coming from a place of experience, if you didn't see what actually was wrong and what actually was working, if you didn't see the spaces that were being created. It was a new kind of orientation, a new kind of space people were being invited to.
There are a lot of things wrong with the world, and they're on many different levels. There are the material things that are wrong. People just don’t have access. There’s an inequality of access. People have no stability. People don’t have the bare minimum things that they need. We really are a developed enough world that we can at least have a bare minimum for people to have worldwide. Governments start wars and conflicts that are totally unrepresentative of the people who live there and are unnecessary and are violent and hurt a lot of people, and they are not in conversation with what people actually want. Most people, the large majority of the world just want to chill and be peaceful and pursue relationships and be with people. For some reason, the powers that be are bent on destruction and hurting other people, and that’s just a fundamental wrong.
Look at the way we measure what’s important. Think about money. Think about profit and what profits means. The idea of profit isn't what's bad. It's good that people are creating in the world. If we really want to give money for things that are good for people, then why are there so many broke homeless shelters. Why aren’t social workers super wealthy? We’re obviously misdefining this term. Wall Street funds economic destruction and genocide and war, and they are the most profitable. That’s obviously wrong. There’s obviously a misalignment that’s happened. This is not how it should be. The way we are thinking about things is wrong. We mostly all agree that it is wrong and that we shouldn’t be doing it this way. We know that it’s not working for most people. We have to recognize that when we don’t feed into these systems that we challenge the power by just refusing to contribute to it. We can make something that works better, and these systems of power will just fall apart on their own. They will just fall away because people stop complying. The structures that hold them up require that everyone participate in some way. We can say, “Actually, no, I’m good. I’m not going to help that at all.” If enough people do that, it crumbles. It can’t force people to work for it.
In Occupy, we had a lot of contact with the military and police. Those are structures, which go to prop up the system as it is. There’s always hope because those are people, so you can reach them on some level. Each person has free will, even if you’ve been convinced to do something else. Even if you’ve gone through a rigorous training that makes you devalue your fellow person, there is still hope. I fundamentally believe that. I’m a sociology major, so I very firmly believe that people are a result of their environment. It’s all what we’re exposed to. People are exposed to some really violent stuff, and people are really traumatized. This world has a lot of trauma, and it creates a lot of trauma and hard experiences for most people. Of course there’s a lot of pain and violence in the world because the system is painful and violent. Then, people pass it along to new people. Hurt people hurt other people. It’s just a cycle, but because it is people, you can always intervene in it, even if it takes generations. There’s always hope for people.
When I write a Facebook status about revolution these days,
I’m always amazed at who that resonates with. It’s not just people that I know
from Occupy. It’s people I know from college and high school. I know it
resonates with my neighbors in Crown Heights, and this I did not see before. I
think that there was something that sprouted at Occupy, and it’s drifting over
everyone. Every time I post and ask why we aren’t doing something, it resonates with more and
more people from many sectors of my life. People are posting articles about the structure of our government, how it’s
defeating itself, how they’re lying to us and how we’re being divided. These economic and political problems aren't being solved. They’re
actually being exacerbated. With the government shutdown
and the debt ceiling, there’s just dysfunction in Washington. Our political
system is self destructing. It’s actively shedding legitimacy. People are
talking about it.
It’s not every day that most people engage politically. If you look at how much people are actually talking about politics and what’s happening in the world, it’s substantially increased recently, especially with these current topics. Everyone has an opinion on the shutdown and the breaking down of our current system. These are moments and opportunities that have to be seized on because people are moving together in relationship to our government. People are suspicious, and it’s not just paranoia. There’s actually something systemically wrong here. This can’t work because it’s not built to work for most of us. I think people are realizing that. I really do think they’re realizing it. We're seeing more mention of revolution and shifts in pop culture in a way that I don’t think existed five years ago. I think people who were not connected to the park are getting ready.There's this sense of something that’s coming sometime soon, a really big shift.
It’s not every day that most people engage politically. If you look at how much people are actually talking about politics and what’s happening in the world, it’s substantially increased recently, especially with these current topics. Everyone has an opinion on the shutdown and the breaking down of our current system. These are moments and opportunities that have to be seized on because people are moving together in relationship to our government. People are suspicious, and it’s not just paranoia. There’s actually something systemically wrong here. This can’t work because it’s not built to work for most of us. I think people are realizing that. I really do think they’re realizing it. We're seeing more mention of revolution and shifts in pop culture in a way that I don’t think existed five years ago. I think people who were not connected to the park are getting ready.There's this sense of something that’s coming sometime soon, a really big shift.
I want to see a society where people treat each
other well. It looks pretty different than this world. It looks like
There is a way that the system legitimizes itself. When you are successful in this world, you begin to make excuses for how the world works. I think you can be successful and not make excuses. People who have powerful positions in media, politics, economics and even academia are working in structure that are built to keep people out. It’s supposed to be alienating and inaccessible. When people make up words that are like three syllables longer than they really need to be, it’s meant to create a barrior, and if you’re welcome inside that barrier and excel in it and rise to prominence, you never have to interact with the people who are the collateral damage of your policy. You don’t have to see that world. You don’t have a real interest in changing it because you’re comfortable. You’re fine. There’s some suffering, but you’re okay. You’re alienated from the other people who are not in the same position, who do not express things the same way that you express them. That position of power demands that you operate in a certain way. It becomes, “Oh, there are necessary evils, and you can’t win them all. If you want to have a democracy, you have to have a military.” People are just so uncreative about what that could look like. What if we have a military in name, but what if it's function instead is conflict negotiation? What if instead of drone bombing them, we were going in and talking to people?
The countries that have the highest incidence of terrorism are some of the poorest countries in the world. Terrorists are created. They are not born. A real organized recruiting force that is built to terrorize only happens because there is violence. All you have to do is provide a different narrative. We have to think of a different way if we’re going to get out of this. We have to be creative with solutions and go out on a limb. Often when I was facilitating, I would be talking to people who I didn’t really know, people who I didn't always agree with. Instead of bringing judgment to the situation and instead of deciding that people were going to act a certain way no matter what happened, I leaned into a space where I was like, “These people are going to resolve this. They’re going to listen to each other, and all I have to do is make sure that they hear each other. I’m going to put my faith in them to actually resolve this in a way where it works for both of them." Sometimes That's hard and doesn’t happen because of the trauma that we are bringing with us, but sometimes it does.
All you have to do is believe in the power of what you’re doing to heal people and to respect people to be in their own command, which isn't usually allowed. Most of the time, people don’t allow people to actually be responsible for themselves and figure out their own situation. They just don’t. We need to lean into the space of, “I don’t have the proof for this, but I think there’s another way." Let’s try the mediation way and see what happens instead. I’m confident that would work. It would take time and investment and just believing that the last thing people want to do is go on a rampage and hurt each other. What are the multiple solutions that are available before that? There are many. That’s the only way to reign in the drama because there’s a lot of trauma. If it doesn’t work right away, it’s because of all that we’ve done in the past. The only way to escape it is to really believe that it could be a different way and then make an effort to do it a different way, not just think about it and not just proselytize, but also act and put those solutions, those alternatives into use.
Once we accomplish that, the conflicts will look different. It’s something we will always be working towards. Even when we get there, we’ll be working towards it. In that space, we will see all of the potential that we have. We will see people being creative and not being dependent, not being forced to do things that they don’t want to do. We will see community. We'll see people taking care of each other. We'll see people working it out. People won't have to do things that they don’t want to do all of the time. We'll see a lot more creative solutions. I think it'll be like an exponential arrangement. The more we lead into it, the more it’s going to give back to us, and the more solutions that we’re going to get that will reinforce it, and we’re just going to get closer and closer to that better way it could be.
Interview by Stacy Lanyon
http://buildingcompassionthroughaction.blogspot.com/
https://www.facebook.com/stacylanyon
https://instagram.com/stacylanyon/
https://twitter.com/StacyLanyon
http://stacylanyon.com/
There is a way that the system legitimizes itself. When you are successful in this world, you begin to make excuses for how the world works. I think you can be successful and not make excuses. People who have powerful positions in media, politics, economics and even academia are working in structure that are built to keep people out. It’s supposed to be alienating and inaccessible. When people make up words that are like three syllables longer than they really need to be, it’s meant to create a barrior, and if you’re welcome inside that barrier and excel in it and rise to prominence, you never have to interact with the people who are the collateral damage of your policy. You don’t have to see that world. You don’t have a real interest in changing it because you’re comfortable. You’re fine. There’s some suffering, but you’re okay. You’re alienated from the other people who are not in the same position, who do not express things the same way that you express them. That position of power demands that you operate in a certain way. It becomes, “Oh, there are necessary evils, and you can’t win them all. If you want to have a democracy, you have to have a military.” People are just so uncreative about what that could look like. What if we have a military in name, but what if it's function instead is conflict negotiation? What if instead of drone bombing them, we were going in and talking to people?
The countries that have the highest incidence of terrorism are some of the poorest countries in the world. Terrorists are created. They are not born. A real organized recruiting force that is built to terrorize only happens because there is violence. All you have to do is provide a different narrative. We have to think of a different way if we’re going to get out of this. We have to be creative with solutions and go out on a limb. Often when I was facilitating, I would be talking to people who I didn’t really know, people who I didn't always agree with. Instead of bringing judgment to the situation and instead of deciding that people were going to act a certain way no matter what happened, I leaned into a space where I was like, “These people are going to resolve this. They’re going to listen to each other, and all I have to do is make sure that they hear each other. I’m going to put my faith in them to actually resolve this in a way where it works for both of them." Sometimes That's hard and doesn’t happen because of the trauma that we are bringing with us, but sometimes it does.
All you have to do is believe in the power of what you’re doing to heal people and to respect people to be in their own command, which isn't usually allowed. Most of the time, people don’t allow people to actually be responsible for themselves and figure out their own situation. They just don’t. We need to lean into the space of, “I don’t have the proof for this, but I think there’s another way." Let’s try the mediation way and see what happens instead. I’m confident that would work. It would take time and investment and just believing that the last thing people want to do is go on a rampage and hurt each other. What are the multiple solutions that are available before that? There are many. That’s the only way to reign in the drama because there’s a lot of trauma. If it doesn’t work right away, it’s because of all that we’ve done in the past. The only way to escape it is to really believe that it could be a different way and then make an effort to do it a different way, not just think about it and not just proselytize, but also act and put those solutions, those alternatives into use.
Once we accomplish that, the conflicts will look different. It’s something we will always be working towards. Even when we get there, we’ll be working towards it. In that space, we will see all of the potential that we have. We will see people being creative and not being dependent, not being forced to do things that they don’t want to do. We will see community. We'll see people taking care of each other. We'll see people working it out. People won't have to do things that they don’t want to do all of the time. We'll see a lot more creative solutions. I think it'll be like an exponential arrangement. The more we lead into it, the more it’s going to give back to us, and the more solutions that we’re going to get that will reinforce it, and we’re just going to get closer and closer to that better way it could be.
Interview by Stacy Lanyon
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